Path: news.xs4all.nl!newsspool.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish From: joshb Subject: Re: Why problems i/t world come from not following Torah law. References: <1f24a591-57a2-4fc3-ae97-c2f52f86547f@n41g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <1cde5fd3-3360-43f6-9bec-0d7235c0cdce@t11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (FreeBSD) Date: 25 Dec 2008 18:41:58 GMT Lines: 133 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.109.21.4 X-Trace: 1230230518 news.xs4all.nl 182 [::ffff:194.109.21.4]:1107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: news.xs4all.nl soc.culture.jewish:2057860 On 2008-12-24, Patty wrote: > On Dec 23, 6:10 am, joshb wrote: >> On 2008-12-22, Patty wrote: >> > On Dec 21, 5:06 pm, joshb wrote: [...] >> WAJIKRA Behar 25:35-37, DEVARIEM Ki Tetsee 23:20-21. >> WAJIKRA Behar 25:23, BEMIDBAR Masee 34:16. [...] > > Interest is permitted; neshekh is prohibited and the definition is > anything over 25% (Exodus 22:24, Deuteronomy 23:20, Mishnah Bava > Metzia 5:1ff) Scandal, Moshe Rabbeinu turns over in his grave in shame. Interest is not permitted between jews, especially not within what attempts to be the nation of Israel in Canaan (at least for pretence purpuses, I guess.) May the future see the vindication of the Torah in the eyes of all the world (or what's left of it after money selling for profit has done its dirty work ...). > Your rejection of Talmud is unacceptable to educated Jews. You are > simply grinding an axe. No, I am not "simply grinding an axe:" I have stated my rational argument. To repeat it (it is extremely important): company profit = REVENUE - ... Revenue: That is the money being made by a group of adults (preferrably), who make something for other people, or provide them with a service, that these other people pay money for to receive. The "revenue" is all the money that these "costumers" (it is no doubt in a dictionary) give to the people in this group. The group you often call "company" (look it up if you need more ideas for what this all means.) I try to make it easy on you, so I'll spell it out. company profit = revenue - COSTS Costs: That is the money the people in the group (remember: "company" ?) must give to yet other people in order to have the things they need for their making what people want (see also "production"). For example (a picture is worth a thousand words, particularly for the uninitiatied): if there is a group of cup-makers, who make stone cups and plates for people to eat from, they buy for instance clay from a mining group. The clay costs money. That is costs for the "company." They pay for this clay with the money they get from the "costumers." If you don't understand this, don't be ashamed, simply ask what's going on. Company profit: that is the money that a company is left with after having received the "revenue," (the money received from the "costumers") and having payed the "costs." It works like so: they buy the clay from the mining group per kilogram (or shekel if you prefer) for less then all the plates and cups they can make with that clay ! They get money in, pay the mining group, and are left with "profit" ! Brilliant, isn't it ! You now understand basic economics, would you ever hase believed it ! Now, that is not all there is to know. Are you curious to learn more ? Do I hear a yes ? Well allright then. Humans are strange creatures, they do not mind to work like a slave, and have someone else boss them around and tell them what to do ! It works like so: someone says they are the boss, and then the other do what he says ! They don't kill this boss, they don't throw him in the river, no: they worship him. Worshipping means doing everything someone says. It is a complicated story, save it for another day. Anyway, if the "boss" controls the company, he is allowed by his slaves (who don't kill him, remember ?), the "boss" is allowed (they don't kill him) to decide what happens with all the money (they don't kill him!). So what happens then is the boss keeps all the money for himself, and payes the slaves (who don't kill th eboss) as little as he can. The boss searches for the most obedient slaves, who demand fewest money. What a masterful trick, isn't it. Now the boss ends up with a lot of money, wouldn't you say, much more then if everyone played fair. Yes now you ask: but they will kill the boss. No, the humans will not kill the boss ! It is all very unusual, but it is the way it goes. Then the story gets ever more nasty, do you want to hear it ? There are people who got a lot of wealth - and I guess we now have a pretty good idea where that could have come from, haven't we. These rich persons then are allowed t ohire out their money, so that yet other bosses can deny yet other slaves their fair bit of profit, making those bosses rich too, and himself also because he gets the "interest" on the money ! No, they don't kill these people either. The problem now is obvious: more and more abusive bosses spring up, ready to exploit more and more slaves. The bosses get rich and richer, the slaves poor, and poorer. And nobody cares ! Nobody understands it. They talk a lot about "how the poor get poorer, and the rich richer," but they don't actually get to understand it. Therefore it goes on, and the slaves even defend the bosses and the money investors as their best friends. In the Torah there was a law, now long long forgotten by the jews. The laws said: do not ask interest on money investing from a brother. Easily we can see now: if you can not get rich from investing money, the rich will not use it to fund abusive bosses who exploit slaves ! Some businesses will have bad bosses and obedient slaves, but it does not have to overrun all of society because of the power of money. The rich will have to spend their money instead of investing it, and work hard to get some more. Many slaves also covet to be a rich investor, therefore they do not stand up to their exploiters. They want to become exploiters themselves at some point. Therefore the Torah prohibits any kind of rent, however little, in particular the heter-iska system which is worse then mere interest. The law has not changed. Only the jews have ... So far it has been a sad story, but this can all be changed. Hopefully, once the slaves understand the problem, they will bring back the Torah finance law because they understand it, they understand that it is not good for them to allow interest on money. Maybe they will even regret having forsaken the Torah, and come to understand how they suffered because of that for about 2 thousand years ! But if they do not want to regret ... Then the bad people these bad laws have put into power will act out their will, and have their way with the world some more. -- This was posted to SCJM, but I figure it is too valuable as a simplistic education of economics to risk getting put down by the moderators of SCJM. PS. This does not mean you should go kill your boss now.