Newsgroups: sci.econ From: jos boersema Subject: Re: Economics is a life or death science: take it serious, or die. References: <6rss0hF36gppU1@mid.individual.net> <6rvbp6F3cvfgU1@mid.individual.net> <982b542d-05aa-47cb-aec3-d2adde904297@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com> <495e6036$0$4879$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com> Organization: www.socialism.nl Reply-To: jos boersema Followup-To: On 2009-01-02, Les Cargill wrote: > jos boersema wrote: >> On 2009-01-02, Michael Coburn wrote: >>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 06:12:05 -0800, patpowersspam wrote: >>>> On Jan 1, 5:56 am, Michael Coburn wrote: >>>> It looks more like socialism if the banks are owned by the politicians. >>>> If the politicians are owned by the banks it looks more like fascism. >>>> The only health relationship between the financial sector (includes >>>> the media) the government is an adversarial relationship. >>>> >>>> Hmm, privatizing the profits and socializing the losses is a new system >>>> not endorsed by any authority in economics. Guess it needs a new name. >>>> Socialism that benefits the leaders of the nation but not the people... >>>> how about... National Socialism? >>> The correct word for what has been happening in this country for the last >>> 7 years is fascism. There is no other word for it. >> >> It is fascism, the natural concequence of capitalism after some time, >> apparently often in the order of centuries, though I imagine the rot >> of capitalism can start as quickly as in decades. >> > > Nothing natural about it - so long as you have good, > transparent capitalism with a functional republic. In fairness I believe that "good, transparent capitalism with functional democracy" can last a long time, even a very long time up to being permamently without fascism/collapse. But it all depends on the pressures to keep the rot out, it depends on the character of a people and the character of the "leader classes." Unfortunately, even if there may be some countries capable of this, countries can end up being infected with rot (corruption/crime/extreme-greed and abuse of power) by other countries. Think for instance about corrupt/rotting elements from the bank of England, traveling to the USA to inform it on this great scheme for easy profits, and how they should put a stop to the green-back system if they want to keep getting rich easily. Other way around is also possible. Point is it is unlikely you can keep out the rot of capitalism, not with a public that is as eager to serve under tyrants (be that Government tyrants or business tyrants) as humanity is. If humans weren't such eager slaves, capitalists would be far less capable in setting industry to their hand. It is the tyrranical industrial who functions as the feeding tube into the body of the working people. Without that feeding tube life would be a lot harder for finance. The point that "for profit finance is most profitable where business leadership is absolute and workerslaves are exploited to the maximum" still stands as a major problem with free trade in business investment credit. If it isn't resolved, it is like an accelerator on a fire of a little greed & corruption. I see 2 potential ways to solve it: I. Political power, either state or "good cause" private with strong inspection and public control. II. Distributive: giving each person per year an amount of business credit, free to use, but on collateral and must be payed down. That last system I haven't worked out at all, but it seems as reasonable. The second system also takes out the power to make investment decisions by for profit finance: it can't guide the money to the workerslave farmes anymore. It is then up to the people to make adequate use of the funds to set up their own companies, and beat the workerslave tyrants at the economic game. Politically consious consuming can help, avoiding the (obvious) workerslave farmes. Both systems can also be combined. I suspect in reality point I will also combine point II, up to a point. > The usual transition is from anarchy to oligarchy. We've a > little of both but a lot of neither. Capitalism can degenerate into anarchy from heavy corruption, if the corruption consolidates it is oligarchy.