Newsgroups: sci.econ,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.socialism
From: jos boersema <joshb@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: Riba (Usury and Interest
References: <ea8e54ca-be5b-469c-89ab-163233110fa1@p36g2000prp.googlegroups.com>
Organization: www.socialism.nl
Reply-To: jos boersema <joshb@xs4all.nl>
Followup-To: sci.econ

On 2009-01-23, romio461@gmail.com <romio461@gmail.com> wrote:
> Riba (Usury and Interest)
> According to Quran and Sunnah
>
> Defining the Problem
>
> Riba (Usury) is of two major kinds:
> .Riba An-Nasia - Interest on lent money.
>
> Riba Al-Fadl - Taking a superior thing of the same kind of goods by
> giving more of the same kind of goods of inferior quality, eg.,dates
> of superior quality for dates of inferior quality in great amounts.
>
> The definition of Interest, the literal meaning of interest or Al-Riba
> as it is used in the arabic language means to excess or increase. In
> the Islamic terminology interest means effortless profit or that
> profit which comes free from compensation or that extra earning
> obtained that is free of exchange. Riba has been described as a loan
> with the condition that the borrower will return to the lender more
> than and better than the quantity borrowed.
>
> As muslims, our main concern when it comes to financial transactions
> is to avoid Riba in any of its forms, despite the fact that the basic
> foundation of the world economics and finance today is that of riba
> and dealing in usury.
>
> The Prophet has foretold us of a time when the spread of riba would be
> so overwhelming that it would be extremely difficult for the muslim to
> avoid it. This situation calls for muslims to be extra cautious before
> deciding on what money payment of financial methods to use in any
> personal or business transaction.
>
> To make sure that we are safe from Riba, we have to learn which
> transactions lead to it.
>
>
> Interest in Pre-Islamic Times
> HafizIbn hajr writes in his commentary of Sahih Bukhari (Fathul Bari),
> Vol. IV p.264:
> Imam Malik reports on the authority of Zaid Ibn Aslam that in the
> period of ignorance (pre-Islamic times) interest was changed according
> to the following scheme. One person had a right to the property of
> another person. It may have been a general right because of the amount
> lent or the price of something purchased or in any other form. A time
> was set when the claim would be settled.When the appointed time
> arrived the creditor would ask the debtor if he wanted to settle the
> claim or pay interest with an extension of time. If the claim was
> settled then there was no increase in the payment. Otherwise the
> debtor would increase the amount payable and the creditor would extend
> the period further.
>
> Textual Evidence
> Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, No. 299; Narrated ?Aun bin Abu
> Juhaifah, r.a.
> My father bought a slave who practised the profession of cupping, (My
> father broke the servants instruments of cupping). I asked my father
> why he had done so. He replied: "The Prophet forbade the acceptance of
> the price of a dog or blood, and also forbade the profession of
> tatooing, or getting tatooed and receiving or giving Riba (Usury), and
> cursed the picture makers".
>
> Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, 2.468, Narrated Samura bin Jundab, r.a.
> He speaks of in a dream related to the Prophet (SAW) that there is a
> river of blood and a man was in it, and another man was standing at
> its bank with stones in front of him,facing the man standing in the
> river. Whenever the man in the river wanted to come out , the other
> one threw a stone in his mouth and caused him to retreat back into his
> original position.The Prophet was told that these people in this river
> of blood were people who dealt in Riba (usury).
>
>
> The Noble Qur'an - Al-Baqarah 275-281
> 275. {Those who eat Rib? (usury) will not stand (on the Day of
> Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shait?n
> (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is
> only like Rib? (usury)," whereas All?h has permitted trading and
> forbidden Rib? (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his
> Lord and stops eating Rib? (usury) shall not be punished for the past;
> his case is for All?h (to judge); but whoever returns [to Rib?
> (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide
> therein }
>
> 276. {All?h will destroy Rib? (usury) and will give increase for
> Sadaq?t (deeds of charity, alms, etc.) And All?h likes not the
> disbelievers, sinners}.
>
> 277. {Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and
> perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and give Zak?t, they will have
> their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they
> grieve}.
>
> 278. {O you who believe! Be afraid of All?h and give up what remains
> (due to you) from Rib? (usury) (from now onward), if you are (really)
> believers}.
>
> 279. {And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from All?h
> and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums.
> Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you
> shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than your capital
> sums)}.
>
> 280. {And if the debtor is in a hard time (has no money), then grant
> him time till it is easy for him to repay, but if you remit it by way
> of charity, that is better for you if you did but know}.
>
> 281. {And be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to
> All?h. Then every person shall be paid what he earned, and they shall
> not be dealt with unjustly}.
>
> The Noble Qur'an - Al-Imran 3:130
> {O you who believe! Eat not Rib? (usury) doubled and multiplied, but
> fear All?h that you may be successful}.
>
>
> Hadith - Mishkat-ul-Masabih
> The following three ahadith have been taken from Mishkat-ul-Masabih
> under the section of interest and the English translation has been
> taken from its English version written by Al Hajj Moulana Fazl Karim
> (218-227 vol.11).
>
> Hazrat Jabir r.a. has reported that the Messenger of Allah peace be
> upon him cursed the devourer of usury, its payer, its scribe and its
> two witnesses. He also said that they were equal (in sin).
>
> Hazrat Abu Hurairah r.a. reported that the Prophet peace be upon him
> said: ?A time will certainly come over the people when none will
> remain who will not devour usury. If he does not devour it, its vapour
> will overtake him? [Ahmed, Abu Dawood,Nisai,Ibn Majah].
>
> Hazrat Abu Hurairah radiyallahu anhu reported that the Messenger of
> Allah peace be upon him said: ?I came across some people in the night
> in which I was taken to the heavens. Their stomachs were like houses
> wherein there were serpents, which could be seen from the front of the
> stomachs. I asked :O Gabriel! Who are these people? He replied these
> are those who devoured usury? [Ahmed, Ibn Majah].

You could cancel the accidental taking of Ribid by giving charity, if
you are uncertain you're taking Ribid, just make sure to give liberally
to Charity. Clearly - I think - when there is a claim of taking interest
against someone, a claim that the other person is a robber, thief,
parasite, destroyer, (the same as interest taking), then the person
accused could bring to the table the amount he/she gave to charity.
If someone has a savings account and by nature of not knowing and this
being the normal way things happen getting increase on it automatically,
say that amounts to $50 a year, then he/she could claim to be innocent
of such parasitic greed if given $50 a year to charity, which would
prove for sure there was no intention to take interest and destroy the
world. If however someone takes interest knowingly, for instance by
owning shares and such devastating parasitic instruments of destruction,
and he becomes rich, then the charity he has given could be claimed to
be a purchase of a better name, and therefore not be charity at all,
but a trade of status in society allowing the taking of interest to
continue. Such charity might not count as a counter claim against the
taking of interest, because it was not given without getting something
in return besides the good the money was going to do.

It is clear from these laws, that Allah has decreed righteous laws.
We should fear in the extreme to break them. Not only out of fear
for being hated by the Creator, which is worst, but also because of the
destruction of society that interest taking results in naturally, and
for which Allah no doubt has made the laws against Ribid.

There are problems with Ribid above the simple man on man parasitism.

 company profit = costs - revenue

The financier who seeks greatest rewards, will seek to fund quality
companies with lowest costs, able to pay him back most Ribid. Such
companies will be dictatorial and the workers will be abused. Both
that financier and the business boss will become rich and powerful,
and then they will oppress the nation, eventually the entire world.

> Hadith -
> Hazrat Al-Khudri radiyallahu anhu reported that the Prophet said:
> ?Gold in exchange for gold, silver in exchange for silver, wheat in
> exchange for wheat, barley in exchange for barley, dates in exchange
> for dates, salt in exchange for salt is in the same category and
> (should be exchanged) hand to hand, so whoever adds or demands
> increase he has practised usury. The giver and taker are the
> same? [Reported by Muslim].

The problem with this is multiplied in the extreme when dealing with
group efforts. The giver of usury there is the business owner/dictator,
who abuses people he calls "his workers," as if he owns them like
slaves. Because the owner gives usury to the financier, the problems
of exploitation result, eventually overrunning all that is good in
society.

Western economists don't understand these things, which is why they
are a laughing stock.

> Conclusion
> After reading the above, it is apparent to us that interest is haram
> (prohibited). How could anybody even take the time out to think about
> a matter in which Allah has declared war on the user and his Beloved
> Prophet has cursed him? As sensible people we can understand that what
> our Creator has chosen for us is for our own prosperity and benefit.

I may have something for you to practise non-profit financing in the
economy with greater power, power to push to the sides the power of
the people who practice Ribid (for profit investment).

With a (large) groep of people, bring together money in one fund. The
money is given as charity, it is disowned and lost to the person giving
it. The group will elect a trustworthy honorable and wise man/women, and
he/she or a group/board of a few people, or all the people together, 
will decide what businesses they will fund with the money. They must
make sure to fund businesses that are well behaved, and ideally into
which some or many of the people who contributed to the fund also work.
This way the money comes back to them: through beautiful businesses that
are well behaved and pay righteous incomes to all. The money was not
lost at all: it comes back in the form of a just society in which living
is worth the trouble.

The persons to do the housekeeping and/or decision making over the fund
should always follow the majority of the demands of the people who made
contributions. If they can't they can resign instead. The persons that
do the housekeeping should NOT be payed out of the fund itself, or its
returned capital. They should be payed by a second stream of charity,
which is payed seperately from the donations to the fund. Therefore
all who participate always know: I pay this sum to the fund, and this
other sum to the maintainers of the fund.

That separation can help insulate the controllers of the fund from
wanting the fund to increase, so that they can take more money out of
it, which might induce them to ask interest / Ribid, causing mentioned
destruction. It might be useful even to deny the people who make the
investment decisions the practical power and access to the money. The
more insulated the people running the fund from the fund itself, the
less danger for Ribid or crime / theft. It can also help greatly if
all is public what happens with the fund.

I hope this will be a *powerful* way to practice non-profit, a way so
powerful that it can wage a succesful war against for-profit finance.
When that war is being faught, we can deliver the killing blow by
outlawing for-profit finance altogether. The just and righteous society
that we would make for ourselves would be the profit we take away from
our charity and our good will !

There we can see clearly that Allah wants nothing but good for us all.
Because he has declared righteous laws that would help us all, that
would even help the usurer, because he will be prohibited from being
an usurer ! The usurer will become a righteous worker, proud of his
work, and not eligible for punishment. 

> Islam has encouraged men to earn their own provision and provide for
> their families. The condition is that the earning has to be according
> to the Shari?ah. These rules can be found under the heading of trade
> in the books of jurisprudence. Interest is amongst those conditions
> which all dealings must be free from.

I note that also the Torah has these laws (undermined and broken by the
jews, see Shulchan Aruch (what they believe is a codification of Torah
law) chapters 66 & 180), and that christianity also kept laws against
Ribid (because it was in the Torah) until the late middle ages. Another
influential "humanitarian" movement was/is socialism/communism, which
has as its most essential slogan/claim to be "anti-capitalist," meant
is being against usury/Ribid.

It seems that about every humanitarian movement of some larger size
has at its essential laws to be against the taking of interest. Even
in western/Greek culture at its inner center you find the hate of
interest. Who has been the first scientist: Aristotles is usually
seen as the first, his influence in western history has been great.
The point was a method of acquiring knowledge. Aristotles was one
of the few western great people to be against usury / Ribid. Although
the west clearly corrupted long ago, at its core you find the hate
against interest taking on money.

> Imam Abu Hanifah has ruled that: "if the measurement system
> (volumetric or in compounds) is the same and the two items are in the
> same category, then they should be sold in the same amount and direct
> not in credit otherwise interest will be found".
>
> Imam Shaf?ee says that: "if the items are valuable and could be
> considered food then there is the chance of interest".
>
> Imam Malik says that: "if the items are valuable and are edible then
> interest is a subject".
>
> muttaqun website

Can you help me with this: someone wrote that Muslems have deviced a
trick to take Ribid from businesses, where the financier becomes
co-owner of the business ? How widespread is this breaking of the Koran
law, where is it cited ? I noted that it is similar in method of breaking
Koran law as the jews use to break Torah law, where it is somehow
claimed that the financier becomes somewhat of an owner or participator,
but only in theory to undermine the anticapitalist law.
--