Newsgroups: alt.politics.socialism Subject: Re: Wat to do ? References: <3beffee3-5267-4ec3-93b4-fafbe1c1aab8@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com> <7f32ef85-b70c-4168-813d-2a4d9903035c@v20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> Organization: http://www.jhwh.be From: "J.H.Boersema" Reply-To: joshb@xs4all.nl Ron [*] <[*]@[*]> wrote: >Jos wrote >> - Now the big system question we are grinding on, and we should keep >> grinding on it: what people can handle the planning of society. >> I suppose you are not willing to do away with Government in its >> law making, policing etc tasks ? That means we are talking about >> economic planning: the companies, the resources, the infrastructure >> (or is that the Govmnt its task) ? > >Planning can only be done for the foreseeable future. It is something >that needs to be done by everyone. > >> As we all know: companies do their own planning. Individuals also >> do their own life planning, and may move independently in/out >> companies planning their own adventure through life. Then the >> Government is working on laws and general issues. So that means >> there is 3 levels of planning going on, all independent and >> self-directing: > >> - individual >> - groups (companies) >> - Government > >> You mentioned "professional organizations" can help with the >> planning, presumably you mean they can hold elections ? What will >> they direct in each of the 3 areas above mentioned (or are those >> 3 areas no longer relevant in how you'd change things). Will these >> professional organizations be industry wide, or capture a sector >> of an industry together with other such professional organizations >> (Unions are professional organizations) ? > >I meant groups such as medical doctors, engineers, accountants, >actuaries that have a deep understanding of the subject matter. > >> Do you want to do away with companies in this process ? > >Companies/corporations are needed to obtain economies of scale. >Socialist countries have corporations, so I don't see any problems >that can't be resolved. Allright, thanks. Let's leave the debt issue because it isn't that important. You can pay it back if you like. The system as you are envisioning it should be described in law. Without law we have nothing. - we have companies, also within one sector there can be multiple companies (not every sector of industry being one company) - power over corporations / sectors of industry is held by experts - government debt is payed back - "Planning must be done by everyone," and since that was about Government I assume you are talking about a form of inclusive participatory democracy ? This could yield a law system like so: Pre-Draft version, general outline of Ron system Constitution: - ---------------------------------------------------------- - 1. The people get together in meetings to discuss the planning of society in general. 1.a The discussions are open to everyone. 1.b They vote by majority. 1.c Each discussion is chaired by someone chosen to for the first half, and someone else for the second half (or the summary and decision making half if no time is specified.) 1.d If the issues are not local but regional, the conclusions of each discussion are represented to a regional discussion forum by 3 representatives. 1.e The regional discussion forum discusses issues, with the chosen experts. 1.f The representatives regroup with their original discussion group to discuss the concerns of the regional discussion. 1.g Steps 1.a to 1.f repeat, until the regional and local boards are in agreement, or until a number of local boards have been outvoted by other local boards by a 10% margin or more. 1.h If the issues where not regional but national, the steps 1.d to 1.g will then occur between the national assembly of regional representatives, and all regional boards. 1.i The chambers of discussion for regional and national boards will not be used for any other purpose. They will be perfectly maintained. The chambers for local boards will be adorned sufficiently if possible, to mark the importance of the occaision. 1.j Each person partaking in a discussion is awarded the same speaking time. 1.k Each person not wishing to speak but being present can donate their time to another speaker. 1.l Persons who misbehave by yelling, cursing, or physical violence will be banned from all boards local, regional and national for at least 15 years. 1.m All meetings are recorded precisely in writing. 1.n The recordings of all board meetings local, regional and national are publicly owned and published at least at the site of the chamber. 1.o Persons can only be part of one local and one regional board discussion at the same time. They can not partake and vote on the same issue in two boards on the same level of Government. 1.p The police is present at all board meetings at the expence of the Government with 10 persons, if more then 250 persons partake in a discussion. (Safety, sense of safety.) These police officers are not part of the discussion and pay no attention to anything but general order (they are part of other boards, or no boards if they wish). 1.q The boards appoint experts in all fields of industry based on their expertise, and their trust in these individuals. 2. Companies can be established on the wish of the Government boards. 2.a Companies decide their own internally local issues. 2.b If companies are not run effectively, relevant Government boards will set guidelines or rules for that company, an entire sector, or all sectors. 2.c Government boards can leave pricing to companies, or order certain pricing levels to be honored. 2.d Persons can ask permission to form companies for a certain sector from the boards. 2.e Persons are free to offer services and products to any and all, under their own price settings, as free individualized companies. These free individualized companies can comprize a maximum of 3 cooperating individuals. 3. Land and natural resources are at the disposal of the Government. 4. Private property and belongings are at the disposal of the owner. 5. Government pays back its own debt. 6. The Government will demand payment of taxes and people will readily surrender needed funds for the common good. 7. A system of police and judiciary combat violations of the law. 8. The national board makes the law. 9. This Constitution can only be changed after a 60% or more approval vote from all people. Something like that ? That is the best I could do given the info you gave. You didn't specify a natural resource system, so I assumed a kind of vague Government owned system, bearing in mind that the Government is extremely democratic (if it where to run properly as intended). This system restricts company formation, but it allows free trade/services for individuals. Please note that I'm trying to create a possibly functioning law system for /your/ "vision of the future." It deviates from my own proposed law system. Still I think it might work that way, particularly because it just brings in the experts sideways, so that they probably won't abuse power, at it can have a free trade economy. Power to define prices doesn't mean it has to be used, so you can switch the system from a complete plan-economy to a completely open free market society. Even more so if you put with 2.e the clause "if it pleases the boards" (puts the power in the boards) or "if it is in the common interest" (puts more power with the justice system). Then you can squeeze out even more free trade. You'll of course note that just saying there isn't any free trade doesn't mean there won't be any. Some estimates put the black market of the USSR at something like 50% of the total economy IIRC ! Law and system is one thing, what happens often is something else. That's the trick with law. If it isn't functional it gets broken. If it is functional it gets broken too. Would you like that law system ? I personally believe it needs more order still in the Government set up. That up there isn't quite enough I think. Too shaky. It needs more order. Things that promote order are things like positions, dates, numbers, limits, locations, procedures. I did try to add some stability, which is to some extend a psychology game (like the chambers can't be used for anything else, that will create a sense of `holyness' in that chamber, and you can bet your bucks that it will have a great impact on the people, they will respect that chamber a lot more for it, even if it doesn't really mean anything physically. For some reason it works that way I think.) (Again: my own system is different both on detail and some on principle, I wouldn't trade my own more detailed system for the above. That said above system has a chance of working IMHO, particularly when more detail is added and the people play along when it starts to operate. Once things settle in functional traditions and the child-diseases have been conquered, it could work. First thing to add is a chapter about human rights protections, such as free speech, equality, and so on and so on.) --