. . Subject: Re: FREE MARKETS ! . . . . . . . . . > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... You don't seem to fully understand the cycle of history ? There are all kinds of developments. The cycles all have their time periods: a day, a week, a year, a corporation start/end, a human life, the life of a nation, the life of an empire, the existence of a religion or wider culture (currently: Roman culture dominates in the west for example, and has for some 2000 years say), the rise of technology, the monkey-type mammels, all mammels, all land animals, animals, the planet, the solar system, ... What we're not seeing yet is a crisis in the solar system, the planets go happily on their way and will presumably do so for millions of years whether we are here or not. We are neither seeing the end of all mammels, even if we cause a nuclear holocoust of all humans. We probably won't murder all monkey type species either and they are not really in much trouble except for us. We are not seeing a collapse of the day cycle, it will probably go on whatever happens. If humans survive the week cycle might go on, production groups are seeing some trouble etc etc, these minor cycles are not a concern; they go on and off all the time. The nation cycles, the nation come and go, for example yesterday the lisbon treaty went into operation murdering some 25 nations in one go, and an evil empire stood up on the world. Nations ended, an evil empire begun. Such things happen all the time, it hasn't ever caused the people's to start to take care of themselves to make the world stable. Cultures are ending also now, christianity ruled Europe for millenia, it is basically imploded in the last 100 years. The chinese culture has changed amazingly the last 100 years; 100 years ago there wasn't even universal suffrage in Europe and the Chinese Emperor was still on the Throne (Dezong of Qing until 1908). India in the last few centuries changed very extreme, the entire world has changed dramatically the last few hundred years, deep cultural changes that haven't happened as big in thousands of years. More or less the Europeans set out on ships and conquered & slaughtered their way along. Also in Europe the changes where great. So, the smaller cycles are nothing to be concerned with I guess, they happened and probably will. The largest are also going on, the Sun isn't about to explode in a few centuries. What is a cultural cycle ? It is often a set of laws and beliefs. What am I proposing for the world ? A set of laws (economic laws), basically an idiot-proof system. If you don't want to look into it that's fine, but you can't really know to what level of idiots it could still handle. I think it can handle a surprisingly deep level of idiocy and corruption. It is designed for that, specifically. Okay: we are witnissing enormous cultural changes now. Judaism is imploding all around, Christianity is imploding, the rule of the buddhist monarchs is forcibly ended. It's not at all clear where it's heading at this point; will science lead the way ? So far it hasn't. We're still in a neo-Roman state, the economy is still capitalist. Obviously I'm claiming that my way proposed, is that scientific way but then done right (science isn't the same thing as nihilistic materialism, it's only the quest for truth). If you will humor me let's look at the last 3 cultural cycles we have had, because they are very interesting wrt the economic problem. A trade economy only works when it is about effort, the products of effort. In a tribal wandering setting: there is no money, there are no businesses tiranical or otherwise in which to invest money, there is no land ownership. That was a very long time ago. We settled down, at one point we had the Roman empire in Europe (and America, most Americans are Europeans and therefore have that history also). Ignoring the roman empire: after it collapsed we got the middle ages, the landen nobility. They controlled the land ownership, and where thereby able to exploit the peasantry. That is one way to abuse people who work, through soil ownership concentration, destsroying all chance of fairness in the markets. This collapsed through the black plague. Then a new cycle came about with some laws against nobility abuse of power: the capitalist "trade whatever you want, land, money, goods, services...". Production groups emerged and it turns out the money power can consume that whole world, and destroy fairness in the markets in its own ways. Then came a third cycle starting after capitalism: socialism. That cycle did achieve some sovereignty but it did away with markets thus also there was no fairness and it was not good. The state tended to overtake everything: management power pressed fairness away. All 3 major issues that can go wrong in an economy (as we now know at least) happened in these three cultural cycles ! We have had 3 cultural cycles quite short in a row, often besides each other. You could say that each next cycle dealt with problems of the previous cycle, yet caused its own problems also. You can't really say that the USSR was only a national cycle, it was much more then that. Anyway, what is now happening however is a crisis in the cycle of technology. We first where in the early stone age, then late stone age, then bronze age, then iron age, then steam engine age and it picks up very quickly as the various inventions feed on each other creating more and more science and technology. Like an asymptote the technology has slowly risen through the millenia, it became faster and now it is at an overpowering state. That is a cycle that is a very long one, it is easily many tens of thousands of years long and it actually impacts on the evolution of the human body itself. Now let's compute that situation back to the other cycles: firt upwards to the monkey type species cycle. What is the relation of this technology cycle ? Most monkeys have quite dexterous hands. Compare horses, compare fish. Hence we can conclude: the technological cycle we are in - tens of thousands of years long, maybe hundreds of thousands (?) - that is a strong potential for this entire class of mammels. In between, by the way, we have the existence of a variety of human species, but I guess they all belong to the technological cycle as well as for example Neanderthale man also had technology. This technological cycle and the species cycle they impact each other very much, proving they are in the same space influencing each other. For example like a working day won't be much affected whether a new nation emerges or not, but a corporation is likely to be affected when a nation dies or emerges. And whole nations could rise and fall when entire cultures rise and fall. The cycles near each other in time-length impact each other all the time. Now compute it downwards, toward the cultural cycles and the empire and national cycles. What happened in the last 400 years when great cultures where changed so drastically ? The Europeans set out to conquer the world ... because they had made the ships and guns for it. Therefore I guess it's safe to say: the technological cycle was the cause of enormous changes in the cultural cycles, the imperial cycles an national cycles, etc. The technological cycle coming into a new phase or maybe you could say crisis is the leading cause. This is a point of gigantic changes because when cultures come up and die out, that is enormous, bigger then whole empires rising and falling, or nations emerging and collapsing, which are already big things. If you take Arabia for example: it has had nations before Islam, it has nations now. The national cycles are ongoing, a bigger cycle of Islam was started spanning over these smaller cycles. The west the same: there where nations before and after the Roman empire, before and after the black death. Before and after unchallanged capitalism and kolonialism. Bigger cultural cycles span many nations, Rome, Feudal, capitalist, socialist, socialist/capitalist (mixture, welfare capitalism.) That spans many nations. What spans entire cultures is the use of technology. Hence when the technological cycle is coming into a crisis or breaking point, which of course it is (needs no argument to prove?), entire cultures are but logs on a raging water fall, aren't they. Well maybe not quite, because these cycles are related in size: they impact each other a lot ! So that is my point: you may think that we are just in ongoing cycles of nations and empires, which is true, but it is only part of the entire spectrum of changes. If you look at the cultural changes, then we're talking about what I want with my system: my system is not one of one corporation is it. It's not a system for one person or one week. It is a system that can be done by a nation, but it is not just a one nation cycle. If you where to do it in one nation, that nation would have a completely unique culture to itself, unlike any other nation. Is it an empire cycle what I want to start then, nation groups having a flavor of a certain culture or even a sort of empire/culture combination thing (like the roman empire). I don't think so: the model as it is presented is open to a wide variety of interpretations and implementations, the presented constitution of 239 laws is but an example (optimized against corruption.) The idea is that many nations, even all, would implement the basic 4 points of a rational economy. That's where it is part of science and not merely a religous 'you just have to believe it' thing. It is part of the 'truth' of things, and not of 'the way we just like to do it for no reason but it works' things. Truth obviously lasts a long time, from whatever culture it first developes. 1 + 1 = 2, forever. So if you would look at my site and realize exactly what it is to be, then you can't say it is a national or an empire cycle, it is at least a cultural cycle. It is its own culture, it would for example have a great effect on the christian culture and the Islam culture and the other great cultures. Maybe you could say that the cultural cycle is its base cycle. On the other hand it is also part of the technology cycle, because "it is the technology of economics" or the scientific cycle which searches for thruth because "it is the truth about economics." Quite litterally it has a technology for Internet voting. It is also a "technology of democracy," system optimized to draw in the popular will. Not in theory, but in actual real life, and that not as a theoretical blabla, but *real* *life*. Now, we do it now, and get those popular opinions right there in th ecouncils, and have them operative as policy. You don't want that big tower next to the Korregew Brug ? You form that council and have the power to change its appearence. That will then get done, this is not a theoretical treatease. It is only theory because it's the only way to get it done. First talk, then action. So .... this thing I want, it is a mixture of the technological cycle itself or rather a small component in it all, and it also has a cultural component. It then pushes along in its own river whole nations as if they where logs on a wide river. That is what cultures do, look at all the arab cultures, or the western cultures: they are embedded in a river of Muslem culture, the western in a christian culture now secularizing. The technology cycle kind of works on the truth and 'it works' principle. If you make an invention, it can change the whole world, forever (pretty much). You can make a small inoquous discovery, and it can change everything, even if it took you no effort at all. That is what I'm trying to do: the 'it works' part would be my 239 laws, the 'truth' part is the science of technology (and also the correct science of human biological evolution which is impacted by the technology, which is completely forgotten so it seems (resulting in social darwinism, eugenics & nazism)). Note rigth there: the science cycle produces Darwinism, but it's not done rigth and the impact on culture is immediate: nazi/fascist culture blossoms up. It then pushes along its river whole nations like they are mere logs on a water fall. The technology cycle sneazes, entire cultures jump up, and they kick before them entire nations. Note the power differences in all these cycles. When does a national cycle impact a wider culture ? Almost never, only when something in a nation happens that impacts culture directly. When does a personal life cycle impact the widest of all technology cycles ? Almost never, only when someone makes a scientific breakthrough. That breakthrough can then impact entire cultures like they are rivers in a stream. That is my goal then obviously: to impact primarily the technological cycle with my work, which is in the class of science, truth & technology. Look into it, see if you agree with that or not. Then it is to impact culture in that people start hopefully to like its programs and some kind of cultural movement emerges. That cultural movement is then to whip up nation states like that was next to nothing, like that was trivial work (which it, basically, is to be.) And now my point: the technological cycle is coming to a tremendous crisis because technology is abused to destroy nature and to kill people and to oppress them, to do crime from the street thug level all the way to the international finance mafia crime syndicate wishing to enslave the whole world. The technology cycle at work ! Do note. Entire cultures ? But pawns on the flows of the technological cycle. One press on the button, the whole arab area may be no more then a steaming pile of rubble, etc etc. The technological cycle is gaining an overwhelming strength over everything now. Why is it going so badly ... that has to do with a lack of development by people becoming smarter and especially more social and less agressive. But if you realize why/how people are to become more social/peaceful, see this: http://www.socialism.nl/~joshb/technical_darwinism.html , then you realize that that entire thing 'smarter & more social / peaceful humans' is an *effect* of the technological cycle ! The technological cycle can have a great impact on it. I suppose it is a back/forth influence too. You then get to even greater cycles: why are humans so agressive/violent, why would we have this abuse of technology, why do we have people abusing each other in corporations, why the war over the wage height, why would bosses want to deny people their share ... eventually that has been caused by the pressures by other species on our species, so that goes way back into the monkey species cycle as a whole. But the technological cycle is not powerless on that, it has a direction too. I agree that it can also cause the wrong direction, but it can also cause the direction toward peace. Then you can go down into the cultural cycles and even national and personal: the bosses want luxury, so they want their serfs to be competent and not murderous to each other. The technological cycle provides the potential to have palaces, swimming pools and delicious food and clothing ... the bosses want that, so they want their serfs to produce it dilligently, intelligently and also: cooperatively (with each other). So that works pro-peace also (in addition to the effect that if we have our strength in weapons, we no longer need it in our bodies therefore 'technically' (litterally and figuratively) we don't need to fight between ourselves anymore to establish mating rights to keep the species fighting fit). The point i'm trying to make is: we shape up now, or we'll go to hell on this Earth. Hence, it's now or never. My stuff can do it. However dumb some people may be, however insane, when faced with total destruction that may sober up the dumbest person on Earth. That may cause that will to participate into something better. Once I've used that to establish my little itsy bitsy impact on the technology cycle (as just one of the tens of thousands, maybe millions of people who have added some new thing to technology on Earth), then it will whip up entire cultures of its own who push entire nations log in front of them no problem. It all takes so tremendously long these cycles ... the technology cycle is without end for what we know (we could reach the stars and outlive the Sun, taking with us the invention of fire from all the way back) ... the cultural cycle can be thousands of years or even tens of thousands of years ... it is all so unbelievably long and varied and enormous ... that it has great potential that it will change everything around for the better. People who may once have been evil or dumb, they may become adequately smart, happy people willing to do the right thing for themselves and their nations, and that may happen many thousands of years *before* even the cultural aspects of all this are worked out and morphe into some new cultures that derive mostly from the technological cycle proper and not from any cultural fringe that may be attached. Hence, it will and can work. It will work, no problem. > ... > ... I'm not insulting you, merely debating the points. > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... No, they will not, there will be a gigantic tsunami and it's either we head to higher ground, or we'll all be dead. It's different this time: technological cycle is coming to its head in a gigantic crisis that pushes before it entire cultures never mind empires or nations like they are but logs on a river. The cultures are logs, the empires are twigs and the nations are leaves, on a raging river passing over the niagra falls of crisis. > ... > ... > ... > ... I know, but the fear will be total, the destruction will be total, global. And above all: it is the last chance anyway. If we don't shape up now, we never will. Now or never. We fail this well and truly, we may find ourselves at the early end of the entire technological cycle again: early stone age. If we are more unlucky, we may even find we're back with the monkey-cycle and have to redo a lot more still. But we can't escape the fact that we are dealing with the technological cycle coming to a head, and *not* the cultural cycle as some people seem to be thinking. If it was merely the cultural cycle, things would move along relatively like they have been, some cultures come and some go, nations will ride those currents up and down, people will produce together in them and have lives from young to old. That's not what it happening. It is not the 'natural' way of the technology cycle anyway, which has a tendency to build & build & build itself up, drawing on past experiences. Sometimes something is lost but as a rule it tends to increase its complexity, spawning cultures, and so on. I think you may have misidentified this as a cultural phenomanon, whereas it is a technical one. It's not another big eb & flow, the entire sea is now eb & flowing: we are hitting a major crisis now because we couldn't get our cultures in order, we couldn't make it so that the good would win over the bad. But there are many many good people, the bad a enot the majority. Therefore we can and must win. Therefore we can use relatively simple cultural means because I think that will be sufficient to bridge the remaining gap between 'making it' and 'total hell on Earth.' It's not that we're dealing with a gang of ruthless criminals, as if no person on Earth is a good person. Many are good, that power can be used and if done properly I expect it will be enough. It should be enough to make it go just well enough so that the stream of humanity will go in a better direction then destruction or hell on Earth. Once it has, it will feed on itself as good things will beget good things, truth and honesty will beget truth and honesty. People having the ability to have good lives for reasonable work will more easily work reasonably and not turn to crime. When many politicians become honest (because they have to!), the few that lie are pressed out. It builds on itself, creating a dike, a natural sandbar, against the wrong direction, that is ever greater and more impossible to penetrate. IMHO it can be done, if the will doesn't yet exist: the current crisis may produce that will in spades ... after all, it is only the sensible thing to do, in people their own interest, isn't it ? > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... . . Subject: Re: FREE MARKETS ! . . . . . . . . . On 2009-12-02, jos boersema wrote: > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... [...] > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... Something else to considder: what happens when a nation implodes or goes through a revolution ? Look at South America, look at Cuba. Nations there experienced a revolution. A reaction to oppression. The revolutionairies won, but then ... what ? You think they have their own unique ideas about how to set up a state or an economy ? Who would in their situation ? What happened, fwik: in South America a lot of them adopted the ideas of Rome. Cuba went into another direction, they opted for the marxist initiative. That is quite different, although there you see the 'enligthened olichargy' come back in the form of a one party rule CP. Anyway: once a nation sees revolution, after the revolution the people in power need a way forward. They will look at what is available in history. There are many tribal nations by the way who do things very differently and IMHO often better, such as the north American Indians. This however seems not to be noticed, maybe it is not on the cultural radar of people doing revolutions. My plan is to have another option for a post revolution situation. First this is only on paper and may therefore be little convincing. Once it is done in some nations and experiences are good (detracting from it finnacial/economic warfare from foreign nations, who may after the 3rd war not even exist anymore I guess), it (or a variation of it) will become the obvious choice for all post-revolution situations. If it works. In the same vain we might say countries become dictatorships because that has happened in the past. On another note: mammel group organization tends to center on power hierarchy because of the needed infighting to keep fighting fit. If that is echoed Monarchy, and if the Greek model with a senate, a peoples representative of some kind, is a mixture of people ruling themselves completely under their own power with Monarchy centralized power, then my system would be another step toward true people power, going all the way. It is therefore suited for people-justice revolution. It's just a matter of gaining standing in a few nations and with many people. So far this is not succesful, but that doesn't mean a lot, these things to take some time. Once it is well established around the world, it only has to work better then Monarchy & the Greek capitalist/socialist models in order to take over next to everything. Considdering how much those are failing ... really what options do people even have open to them ? What would you do if you had just won a revolution and people asked you: what next ? Go back to the USA Constitution ? You pulled out an oldie that you liked, ignoring other better options you trusted, maybe innovating a bit on it. Wasn't it the USA Constitution, like the Greek and Roman models, that already failed spectacularly before ? But what else ? BTW, Libya has innovated, they have some kind of people's council model. It may be that one day they'll inspire future revolutionairies with it. Libya has a people councils model BTW, mine is also a people council model. My model seems to have smalle councils, people group per 50, and it is all protocolized and legalized in my model; I thought that would press out the room for corruption. I read their green booklet, it goes in the direction I'm also wanting to go, but my system is more detailed. They on purpose didn't make (too?) much detail, I on purpose did. I want it all to be crystal clear, because like the Green Book says: in the end, the powerful will rule. Therefore I say: we will have protocols and more protocols, so that those with a big mouth will be forced to be silent when the meek talk their part. Then, the powerful will not rule, neither through land ownership, high finance, company ownership, or a big mouth in Government. Unless one or a few nations do my system, none probably will. But that goes back to that we are at the end of the technology cycle if we go on with the abuse of people & technology - which is imho the result of bad laws bringing bad people to power. -- http://www.socialism.nl